Clr Motorsporst Built My Engine!
04-12-2005 | 01:31 PM
#11
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 63
[quote name='rx7tt95' date='Apr 8 2005, 01:05 PM']Boost creates horsepower, not compression. I will be able to run about 4 to 5psi more boost with low compression rotors than I would with the high comp. rotors. Combine that with Mazda's manufacturing inconsistencies on the RE and REW rotors and it's a no brainer in my book. I do not notice a bit of difference in off-boost response. Right now I'm keeping the motor at under 5K and under 10psi of boost until about 1000 miles. Then I'll get her tuned!
Michel
[/quote]
Sorry, but you're wrong.....compression also creates horsepower.
If you drop 9:1 compression rotors with exact set up you'll make more power and with added efficiency.
You will always have to run more boost with lower compression to make the same power.
At some point in a low compression race motor it will have the advantage and that will be in the amount of boost it will handle resulting in overall more hp.
and without any doubt.....Carlos is simply a master with the rotaries. Not to many can brag about messing with 2, 3 and 4 rotors in every aspect.
Good Luck with the engine.
Michel
[snapback]697176[/snapback]
[/quote]
Sorry, but you're wrong.....compression also creates horsepower.
If you drop 9:1 compression rotors with exact set up you'll make more power and with added efficiency.
You will always have to run more boost with lower compression to make the same power.
At some point in a low compression race motor it will have the advantage and that will be in the amount of boost it will handle resulting in overall more hp.
and without any doubt.....Carlos is simply a master with the rotaries. Not to many can brag about messing with 2, 3 and 4 rotors in every aspect.
Good Luck with the engine.
04-12-2005 | 04:56 PM
#12
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 629
From: S. Florida
I'll have to turn right around and say that you are taking things a bit too literally. The "boost creates hp" quote is directly from Carlos's mouth, not mine. I'm willing to bet he has quite a bit more real world/racing experience than you. I do understand your point however. Try to understand that the ability to run 5psi more boost safely will yield not only more hp than bumping up compression half a point, but you'll have a safer motor to boot. And that's not just due to the lower compression but to the stronger rotors themselves. Now hypothetically, let's say a turbo's compressor is more efficient at 20psi than 15...not only are you able to run more boost, the intake charge is cooler, thus more hp. And less chance of detonation. My original quote was a generality. Yes, both make hp. Higher boost on our engines, running pump gas and low compression rotors will make more than the same engine with higher compression rotors and less boost, plain and simple. Now if you want to call Carlos up and tell him he's wrong, be my guest. Just make sure to call me first so we can make it a three way. I'd REALLY like to hear that conversiation!
[quote name='Boostn7' date='Apr 12 2005, 10:31 AM']Sorry, but you're wrong.....compression also creates horsepower.
If you drop 9:1 compression rotors with exact set up you'll make more power and with added efficiency.
You will always have to run more boost with lower compression to make the same power.
At some point in a low compression race motor it will have the advantage and that will be in the amount of boost it will handle resulting in overall more hp.
and without any doubt.....Carlos is simply a master with the rotaries. Not to many can brag about messing with 2, 3 and 4 rotors in every aspect.
Good Luck with the engine.
[/quote]
[quote name='Boostn7' date='Apr 12 2005, 10:31 AM']Sorry, but you're wrong.....compression also creates horsepower.
If you drop 9:1 compression rotors with exact set up you'll make more power and with added efficiency.
You will always have to run more boost with lower compression to make the same power.
At some point in a low compression race motor it will have the advantage and that will be in the amount of boost it will handle resulting in overall more hp.
and without any doubt.....Carlos is simply a master with the rotaries. Not to many can brag about messing with 2, 3 and 4 rotors in every aspect.
Good Luck with the engine.
[snapback]698819[/snapback]
[/quote]
04-12-2005 | 08:56 PM
#13
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 63
[quote name='rx7tt95' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:56 PM']
I'll have to turn right around and say that you are taking things a bit too literally. The "boost creates hp" quote is directly from Carlos's mouth, not mine. I'm willing to bet he has quite a bit more real world/racing experience than you. I do understand your point however. Try to understand that the ability to run 5psi more boost safely will yield not only more hp than bumping up compression half a point, but you'll have a safer motor to boot. And that's not just due to the lower compression but to the stronger rotors themselves. Now hypothetically, let's say a turbo's compressor is more efficient at 20psi than 15...not only are you able to run more boost, the intake charge is cooler, thus more hp. And less chance of detonation. My original quote was a generality. Yes, both make hp. Higher boost on our engines, running pump gas and low compression rotors will make more than the same engine with higher compression rotors and less boost, plain and simple. Now if you want to call Carlos up and tell him he's wrong, be my guest. Just make sure to call me first so we can make it a three way. I'd REALLY like to hear that conversiation!
Hehe...dude relax !!!!
Boost does creat hp, no argument there but there needs to be a balance between boost and compression.
You don't see any "big name" racers running 7:1 compression to make big numbers. Technology has come a long way allowing us to have the best of both worlds to an extent.
Higher compression (9.0:1) obvioulsy will allow better fuel economy, spool up and broader torque curve *but* we'll agree the 8.5:1 compression will ultimately make more power in a race motor.
FD rotors are cast much thinner and thats why you see them dented often when faced with detonation.....not a good candidate for the CLR rotor modifications.
I've used both 9.0:1 as well as the 8.5:1 rotors in the same motor and I'll tell you....9.0:1 rotors rev faster !!! In your case it doesn't matter since they have been lighten to match the weight.
I run 20psi on 9.0:1 rotors with 93-94 octane....more then enough power in the street !!!
Cooler air @ 20psi rather then 15psi........don't think so....
I'm sure I'll talk to Carlos some time soon but doubt it if it will relate to this topic.
Again... good luck and enjoy the CLR motor.
JD
I'll have to turn right around and say that you are taking things a bit too literally. The "boost creates hp" quote is directly from Carlos's mouth, not mine. I'm willing to bet he has quite a bit more real world/racing experience than you. I do understand your point however. Try to understand that the ability to run 5psi more boost safely will yield not only more hp than bumping up compression half a point, but you'll have a safer motor to boot. And that's not just due to the lower compression but to the stronger rotors themselves. Now hypothetically, let's say a turbo's compressor is more efficient at 20psi than 15...not only are you able to run more boost, the intake charge is cooler, thus more hp. And less chance of detonation. My original quote was a generality. Yes, both make hp. Higher boost on our engines, running pump gas and low compression rotors will make more than the same engine with higher compression rotors and less boost, plain and simple. Now if you want to call Carlos up and tell him he's wrong, be my guest. Just make sure to call me first so we can make it a three way. I'd REALLY like to hear that conversiation!
Hehe...dude relax !!!!
Boost does creat hp, no argument there but there needs to be a balance between boost and compression.
You don't see any "big name" racers running 7:1 compression to make big numbers. Technology has come a long way allowing us to have the best of both worlds to an extent.
Higher compression (9.0:1) obvioulsy will allow better fuel economy, spool up and broader torque curve *but* we'll agree the 8.5:1 compression will ultimately make more power in a race motor.
FD rotors are cast much thinner and thats why you see them dented often when faced with detonation.....not a good candidate for the CLR rotor modifications.
I've used both 9.0:1 as well as the 8.5:1 rotors in the same motor and I'll tell you....9.0:1 rotors rev faster !!! In your case it doesn't matter since they have been lighten to match the weight.
I run 20psi on 9.0:1 rotors with 93-94 octane....more then enough power in the street !!!
Cooler air @ 20psi rather then 15psi........don't think so....
I'm sure I'll talk to Carlos some time soon but doubt it if it will relate to this topic.
Again... good luck and enjoy the CLR motor.
JD
04-12-2005 | 09:04 PM
#14
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 17,839
From: NJ
Originally Posted by Boostn7' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:56 PM
I'll have to turn right around and say that you are taking things a bit too literally. The "boost creates hp" quote is directly from Carlos's mouth, not mine. I'm willing to bet he has quite a bit more real world/racing experience than you. I do understand your point however. Try to understand that the ability to run 5psi more boost safely will yield not only more hp than bumping up compression half a point, but you'll have a safer motor to boot. And that's not just due to the lower compression but to the stronger rotors themselves. Now hypothetically, let's say a turbo's compressor is more efficient at 20psi than 15...not only are you able to run more boost, the intake charge is cooler, thus more hp. And less chance of detonation. My original quote was a generality. Yes, both make hp. Higher boost on our engines, running pump gas and low compression rotors will make more than the same engine with higher compression rotors and less boost, plain and simple. Now if you want to call Carlos up and tell him he's wrong, be my guest. Just make sure to call me first so we can make it a three way. I'd REALLY like to hear that conversiation!
Hehe...dude relax !!!!
Boost does creat hp, no argument there but there needs to be a balance between boost and compression.
You don't see any "big name" racers running 7:1 compression to make big numbers. Technology has come a long way allowing us to have the best of both worlds to an extent.
Higher compression (9.0:1) obvioulsy will allow better fuel economy, spool up and broader torque curve *but* we'll agree the 8.5:1 compression will ultimately make more power in a race motor.
FD rotors are cast much thinner and thats why you see them dented often when faced with detonation.....not a good candidate for the CLR rotor modifications.
I've used both 9.0:1 as well as the 8.5:1 rotors in the same motor and I'll tell you....9.0:1 rotors rev faster !!! In your case it doesn't matter since they have been lighten to match the weight.
I run 20psi on 9.0:1 rotors with 93-94 octane....more then enough power in the street !!!
Cooler air @ 20psi rather then 15psi........don't think so....
I'm sure I'll talk to Carlos some time soon but doubt it if it will relate to this topic.
Again... good luck and enjoy the CLR motor.
JD
Hehe...dude relax !!!!
Boost does creat hp, no argument there but there needs to be a balance between boost and compression.
You don't see any "big name" racers running 7:1 compression to make big numbers. Technology has come a long way allowing us to have the best of both worlds to an extent.
Higher compression (9.0:1) obvioulsy will allow better fuel economy, spool up and broader torque curve *but* we'll agree the 8.5:1 compression will ultimately make more power in a race motor.
FD rotors are cast much thinner and thats why you see them dented often when faced with detonation.....not a good candidate for the CLR rotor modifications.
I've used both 9.0:1 as well as the 8.5:1 rotors in the same motor and I'll tell you....9.0:1 rotors rev faster !!! In your case it doesn't matter since they have been lighten to match the weight.
I run 20psi on 9.0:1 rotors with 93-94 octane....more then enough power in the street !!!
Cooler air @ 20psi rather then 15psi........don't think so....
I'm sure I'll talk to Carlos some time soon but doubt it if it will relate to this topic.
Again... good luck and enjoy the CLR motor.
JD
i agree with JD 100% !!!!!
hell i want to use N/A high compression rotors in the next motor if i ever build another one........
04-12-2005 | 09:54 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 629
From: S. Florida
Because 3mm are more durable than 2mm. Because they'll handle a bit more abuse. Because CLR insists on them. What issues are there with 3mm seals that you have irrefutable proof of? Most shops will insist on 3mm for high hp cars. If you think they don't seal as well, according to CLR, that just isn't true. Send him an e-mail and he'll explain why,
JD, no worries but I tend to take Carlos' word over well, just about anyone. I responded the way I did because you didn't read between the lines of my post. Yes, I didn't ink out every last scientific detail but I also didn't think I had to. It's hard to tell what people are thinking on the internet as there's no tone inflection. I'm not upset or mad at you, just give me a bit of a break No need to call me out on something as arbitrary as that. I'm well aware of the effects of CR on internal dynamics, VE, hp and torque. I guess I've gotten a bit defensive lately and I apologize. There's just so many armchair rotorites (me included!) all of the forums. Too much disinformation. Too much bickering. Carlos speaks and I listen. He knows and relatively speaking, I don't.
Anyway, Carlos just about has more experience than the whole forum combined! All the issues you brought up in your response (and I brought up in the initial post) is why he recommends them over 93 rotors. He will port phase 93 rotors if you ask him to. He'll tell you it's a bad idea to run them. They're just not made as well. I can tell NO difference between the two in "revability" or off boost response. Part of that is due to the tuning tricks. I'm sure lots of it has to do with him buiding a tight motor with excellent porting. I dunno. But the short answer is the motor WILL be more reliable. Bottom line, no if's and's or but's. The motor flows enough for 600hp. I need high compression rotors why? I'll never see 600hp with my current turbo so the point is somewhat moot.
Take into account we're talking about a street engine, not a 1/4 mile special, one that will also see track days on a regular basis. That's sustained high boost running, five sessions a day, for 30 minutes straight. Depending on what track I'm at, some of the straights are almost a mile long. Hell, if you like pulling and rebuilding your engine, go with the high compression rotors. If you're running on the ragged edge and want every last ounce of power and have the ECU and supporting hardware, heck go for it. But for 99.999% of us on the list, the low compression rotors with higher boost will make more hp. And Vosko, the way you break things...well, the low comp rotors should be mandatory! LOL.
JD, no worries but I tend to take Carlos' word over well, just about anyone. I responded the way I did because you didn't read between the lines of my post. Yes, I didn't ink out every last scientific detail but I also didn't think I had to. It's hard to tell what people are thinking on the internet as there's no tone inflection. I'm not upset or mad at you, just give me a bit of a break
Anyway, Carlos just about has more experience than the whole forum combined! All the issues you brought up in your response (and I brought up in the initial post) is why he recommends them over 93 rotors. He will port phase 93 rotors if you ask him to. He'll tell you it's a bad idea to run them. They're just not made as well. I can tell NO difference between the two in "revability" or off boost response. Part of that is due to the tuning tricks. I'm sure lots of it has to do with him buiding a tight motor with excellent porting. I dunno. But the short answer is the motor WILL be more reliable. Bottom line, no if's and's or but's. The motor flows enough for 600hp. I need high compression rotors why? I'll never see 600hp with my current turbo so the point is somewhat moot.
Take into account we're talking about a street engine, not a 1/4 mile special, one that will also see track days on a regular basis. That's sustained high boost running, five sessions a day, for 30 minutes straight. Depending on what track I'm at, some of the straights are almost a mile long. Hell, if you like pulling and rebuilding your engine, go with the high compression rotors. If you're running on the ragged edge and want every last ounce of power and have the ECU and supporting hardware, heck go for it. But for 99.999% of us on the list, the low compression rotors with higher boost will make more hp. And Vosko, the way you break things...well, the low comp rotors should be mandatory! LOL.
04-13-2005 | 12:37 AM
#17
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 17,839
From: NJ
honestly i only know one person with a CLR built engine and he loves it. i have seen JD's cars/customer cars.....he knows how to build a car that will kickass on the drag strip and you can drive every day to work and generally be more reliable than a stock car, he is also known for numerous highway top speed runs........and i am jealous
04-13-2005 | 03:33 PM
#20
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,107
From: fredneck MD
on the 1000ish HP drag race car i work on, moving from 3mm to 2mm seals improved HP and made the car just run better. If a 2mm seal can hold up at 50lbs (and yes that did happen, i saw the datalogs with my own eyes) I will run them over the 3mil. Basically on a high HP motor if it is going to blow up, having a 3mm seal in there is not going to stop it...
but whatever, im sure your motor will run great, ill keep my 2mms though
-bobby
but whatever, im sure your motor will run great, ill keep my 2mms though
-bobby